River, I am Listening Now

Years ago, a Deep Green Resistance member hosted the RAGE podcast: Radio Against Global Ecocide. We have posted an archive page of the audio episodes, and we wanted to repost this episode from August 12, 2010. Host Seymour Lyphe holds his first interview with a non-human: the kisiskāciwani-sīpiy (Saskatchewan River) near his home.

Listen to this episode, or read Seymour's original post:

I used to believe I was fairly good at being in touch with nature. When I walked though the forest I would walk around spider webs, careful not to step on mushrooms. Even in town I would step over ants on the sidewalk, which is tricky because ants are not very linear. I talk with chickadees, crows, and magpies; any bird that will hang around for a chat. I stop walking so a squirrel will not see me and can safely cross the road. I talk with plants and, yes, have even hugged a few trees, which gives a very calming feeling.

It was not until I did the interview with kisiskāciwani-sīpiy that I realized that much of my relationship the real world was, well, less than real. My connection with the kisiskāciwani-sīpiy was one of the most emotional experiences of my life.

It has been very hard for me to figure out how I going to present this; at the same time I believe it is important that I do.

As I was sat down (I slipped and fell in a sitting position so I stayed where I was) to do my interview with the river and record the sound it was making, it become obvious, as it would to anyone who sits by a river, that a river is much more then water running over rocks. It is everyone who lives in and around it. It is the beings who come in contact with it, no matter how briefly. I will play Derrick Jensen’s piece "Pretend you are a River" at the end of this, as it is one of the best pieces I have every read and heard on what it is to be a river. Here is the story the river told me, through imagery and emotion.

The kisiskāciwani-sīpiy was born with the rise of the mountains and was shaped through the ice age. Now it told me it is dying. The glaciers that give it life are fading away.

I was shown images of a time when the forest and prairie crowded against the river, when it had friends to talk with, not the strange yellow or green aliens of today.

Then it all changed.

Imagine you are being poisoned. Imagine that the life blood is being drained from you so the poison becomes stronger. Imagine that you are forced to pass this poison on to all your friends and those who live with you. Imagine you are forced to give this poison to everyone you meet on your path. Imagine that with very fibre of your soul you do not want do to this. You scream out for help but those who listen are gone. And the poison keeps coming.

I saw the death of kisiskāciwani-sīpiy friends, death of those who listened. At times there was more blood then water, then the oldest of friends fell and soon came the strange and crazy ones.

During this time I cried as the river was crying. It seemed to be coming from a depth I have not been to before. I choked and gasped as if I were trying to rid myself of the poisons within me. At times I just writhed in pain.

Afterwards I lay there, stunned by the emotions I had witnessed. I felt I had just an inkling of what it must be like to be tortured or subjected to the worst concentration camp conditions.

I thought also that we who live in the dominant culture really have no idea what it's doing to the world, to the living earth, for our comfort and ease of life. I'd like to think that if those who are supposedly fighting for kisiskāciwani-sīpiy and other rivers really understood the pain the rivers are in, they would be working that much harder to protect them. But I am not sure, for I have seen very little willingness on the part of environmentalists to give up their comfort for any of the living world.

I also start to understand what it is to be alive in the world, to feel connected to the place I live. I wonder if I came anywhere close to the connection between past listeners and the river. I will make every effort to do so.

After my talk with kisiskāciwani-sīpiy I have come to realize that we are meant to drink living water. The water that comes from pipes is no longer living, and is full of its own unknown concoctions. The problem is that the living water is now poison and we cannot drink it. Tap water is zombie water, zombie water for zombies.

We need desperately to heal the rivers, heal ourselves. We need a resistance that will make it so.

Resilient, Life-Supporting Resistance Communities

Marilyn Linton / Deep Green Resistance Eugene

Derrick Jensen interviewed Stella Strega Scoz, a DGR member in the Canary Islands, for the December 6th episode of Resistance Radio. Scoz heads the Integral Permaculture Academy, which takes a radical approach to permaculture practice and teaching.

Balanced resistance movements have both the outward action and the inward support and strength of strong community behind them. A system in harmony with the living world, promoting reconnection to it, and resisting the oppressive dominant systems must be built with an awareness of the current circumstances, an inclusion of indigenous wisdom from many sources and experts in applicable fields, and a heart-felt love of life.

Integral Permaculture covers all this ground and more, while working toward food sovereignty and other forms of independence from civilization. The study of Integral Permaculture in tandem with a deep green resistance is an important part of building a stable culture of resistance.

Listen to the Resistance Radio interview below, or listen on our Youtube channel.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio interviews.

Chris Hedges on Resistance Radio

Chris Hedges, one of the great intellectuals of our time, opens this important interview with two quotes. James Baldwin says of the rebel and the artist that it's not so much that they have a vision, but that they're propelled by it. Hannah Arendt writes of people who resist that "It's not those who say 'This shouldn't be done.' or 'We oughtn't to do this.' It's those who say 'I can't.'"

Hedges uses these quotes as a launching point into an important conversation with Derrick Jensen about rebels, revolutionaries, and revolt. How do people willing to defy power develop, and what contributes to their success or failure in fighting injustice? Are such people born with a unique spark required for them to stand up against those in power? Can this impulse be cultivated in them, or in those willing to follow the rebel? What conditions need be present in society to launch a larger movement of resistance? Can these conditions be cultivated? What are the differences between rebels working for the good of others vs abusers who call themselves victimized rebels? What are the dangers of using violence in a struggle for liberation?

Jensen and Hedges discuss the difficulty of getting a radical or even progressive message out to people in these days of society in decay, spectacle, and unwillingness to hear uncomfortable truths. Between the entrenched political parties shutting out any discourse critiquing power, the control of mass media by corporations carefully filtering what gets through, and even the erosion of intellectual freedom in universities, the process of building an opposition to business as usual is painful and deadly slow. Despite this, or perhaps because of it, we must work harder (and smarter) than ever to break down these corrupt structures, restore local decision making, and rebuild healthy communities.

Hedges believes the system is irredeemable, and any attempt to work with or within it is a waste of precious time we don't have. Everything we do now must be oriented towards overthrowing the system and corporate power. If we don't overthrow it soon, we're faced with the extinction of not just the human species, but all others as well.

Hedges has many insights into our current crises of political, economic, and moral systems; and into what is necessary to correct our course. Listen to his June 21, 2015 interview below, download mp3, or listen on our Youtube channel. For more of his brilliant analysis, read his latest book Wages of Rebellion: The Moral Imperative of Revolt or any of his many other books.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio interviews.

DGR NY on Guy McPherson's Nature Bats Last

Pauline Schneider and Guy McPherson interviewed Frank Coughlin of DGR NY for the March 3rd episode of the Nature Bats Last podcast. Coughlin gives a basic overview of Deep Green Resistance: our philosophy, our strategy, our campaigns, and our goal of building a culture of resistance. He speaks, from his perspective as a health care practitioner and his experiences abroad, about the need for resistance in the heart of empire, rather than leaving the responsibility for revolution solely to those most oppressed and with the fewest resources. He also ties this exploitation of global capitalism to social injustices at home, and to ecological devastation.

Coughlin helped organize a workshop in New York City in late February featuring McPherson, and explains how the recent event grew out of a successful partnership the year before. McPherson presents a sober assessment of the state of climate change and the dire circumstances for all life on earth, including humans. Deep Green Resistance presents a strategy based on such a realistic assessment, proposing action on the same scale as our predicament. This sort of eyes-wide-open learning and decision making is likely to lead to more effective action than analyses and approaches oriented towards feel-good personal actions.

Listen to this episode as a good introduction to Deep Green Resistance with a personal spin: Frank Coughlin on Nature Bats Last, and visit Deep Green Resistance New York if you live in the area and would like to get involved.

Gorilla Radio interviews: Will Falk and Vanessa Gray on the Unis'tot'en Camp

Liz McArthur of Victoria BC is creating a radio documentary on the Unis'tot'en Camp pipeline blockade. She interviewed two fellow volunteers who participated in the summer caravan to the Camp, and a third activist involved with defense of the Sacred Headwaters. The interviews aired on the August 4, 2014 episode of Gorilla Radio.

McArthur interviews:

• Will Falk of Deep Green Resistance and Victoria Forest Action Network, on his environmental activism with the Camp and other efforts. He discusses the importance of supporting indigenous struggles, and what members of settler culture need to understand and how they should approach such solidarity work.
• Vanessa Gray, a member of the Amjiwnaang nation in the Chemical Valley of Southern Ontario, describing the horrific conditions of living in close proximity to 63 oil and gas facilities, including pipelines, refineries, and loading docks. Gray describes the incredibly high rates of health problems brought on by this policy of environmental racism towards the indigenous. Gray brought youth to the Camp to show them that places still exist with clean water and air, and to inspire them to fight against the dominant culture of monetary profit at the sacrifice of people and land.
• John Mowat Stephen briefly talks about activism with the Tahltan First Nation around the Sacred Headwaters in northern BC.

Listen to the interview to learn more about the front line struggles in BC against the fossil fuel industry, and how you can help:

Browse all DGR member appearances.

Chris Matera on biofuels and other excuses for clearcuts

Chris Matera founded and works in his spare time for Massachusetts Forest Watch, fighting against destruction of New England forests. Derrick Jensen interviewed him for the November 30 episode of Resistance Radio, discussing the many forces pushing for logging.

As expected, the timber industry puts out carefully crafted propaganda designed to confuse well meaning but ignorant people. Companies claim clearcutting will counteract stressors, correct forest imbalances, and otherwise improve forest health. They claim clearcutting will improve habitat for cute animals (already overabundant because of past logging), not mentioning the threatened species who will suffer further harm. They claim they need to clearcut trees now to prevent future hurricanes from knocking them down.

Less immediately transparent is the propaganda around biofuels, billed as clean and green, but really just another excuse to clearcut forests. Matera says that burning green trees is 50% more carbon polluting than burning coal, and has a similar impact on air quality. He warns people to critically examine claims of energy sustainability, usually heavily based on this habitat destruction and pollution even worse than coal.

Perhaps most surprisingly for many listeners, Jensen and Matera reveal big green NGOs such as The Sierra Club, National Wildlife Federation, and The Nature Conservancy as more of a problem than a help. Time and time again, grassroots activists have clashed with such NGOs backing environmentally destructive practices like biofuels via deforesting. Jensen and Matera discuss the dynamics and details of this serious obstacle to environmentalism.

Listen to this free ranging discussion below, play the interview at the Deep Green Resistance Youtube Channel, or visit Massachusetts Forest Watch. And please share this interview with friends and family to promote a better understanding of what the hype around biofuels really means for the earth.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio episodes.

Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio on youtube and archive page

Almost every Sunday, Derrick Jensen interviews an activist, biophile scientist, land restorationist, or other person similarly engaged in building a culture of resistance. The interviews are always worth listening to, packed with interesting information and insights drawn out by Jensen's experienced questions.

The interviews are available as mp3 downloads or audio streams from our Resistance Radio archive page, and we've now made them available on Youtube as audio with a still image of the interviewee, accessible to those who prefer to browse Youtube or want to add the episodes into playlists. We'll keep adding new interviews as they're released. See them all at the Deep Green Resistance Youtube channel, and please share these important conversations widely!

Radical analysis of the war in Iraq

The March 25, 2013 episode of Liberation Radio focused on the war in Iraq, in commemoration of the 10 year anniversary of the US invasion. Alla Baker shares her perspective moving from Iraq to the US and feeling shocked by the ignorance people displayed of conditions in Iraq, and especially of the effects of US imperialism in other countries. Kevin Baker (no relation) describes some of the horrific aftermath in Iraq, and presents the March Forward campaign to help active service members resist deployment.

Mike Prysner, a veteran of the initial 2003 invasion, provides an outstanding analysis of the war. He begins by recapping the lies, now well known, about the US mission in Iraq, fed to young service members and citizens in general to justify the invasion. Less often heard is the story of radicalization of soldiers on the ground. The reality of serving on a violent occupation force and the daily contradictions with the official US story led Prysner and others to the understanding that Iraqi resistance is fully justified. From there, they came to realise that this invasion was not a mistake led by a specific administration gone mad, but that the entire system of capitalism depends on such wars, and that the US soldiers sent to secure foreign resources and markets for American interests have more in common with the Iraqi people than they do with those who direct and profit from the invasions.

Though this is an old episode, it has a lot of value in its retrospective analysis. Listen below, or browse all Liberation Radio episodes.

Con Slobodchikoff on prarie dogs & animal language

In a thematic follow-up to the interview with Culum Brown, Derrick Jensen's August 17 Resistance Radio episode features Con Slobodchikoff. Slobodchikoff studies Gunnison's Prairie Dogs as a model for understanding animal language, and shares some delightful and amazing observations on the complexity of their relationships and communication. For example, the prairie dogs can tell each other the equivalent of "Here is a tall thin human walking slowly wearing a blue shirt coming towards us."

Jensen and Slobodchikoff discuss the reasons for mass die-offs, habitat destruction, and ongoing intentional eradication of prairie dogs, a topic especially heartbreaking (but important) in light of their intelligence and highly developed social structure. They also examine their role improving pastures and prairies as a keystone species in their landbases, a great bonus to their being just plain cute.

The conversation touches on many other subjects, including language in other species, what actually constitutes language, the assumptions and inherent values of science (Slobodchikoff was pressured to deafen young prairie dogs to see how it affected their language development; he refused), and the many ways science and other institutions of civilization reinforce the arrogant myths of human supremacism.

Listen to this important and enjoyable interview below, play the interview at the Deep Green Resistance Youtube Channel, or visit the website for Con Slobodchikoff's book Chasing Dr. Doolittle: Learning the Language of Animals.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio episodes.

Culum Brown on fish intelligence

For the August 10th episode of Resistance Radio, Derrick Jensen interviewed Culum Brown, an Australian scientist. Brown has specialized in the behavioral ecology of fishes, with a focus on their ability to learn and remember things like environmental hazards, specific places of danger, and the social behavior and trustworthiness of other individual fishes (within the same species and across different species.)

With a combination of fascinating anecdotes and scientifically researched conclusions, Brown counters the popular notions that fish are stupid, can't learn or remember, and can't feel pain. (In fact, he says pain receptors in humans evolved and are nearly indistinguishable from those of fish; the only reason we can feel pain is because they can.) Jensen and Brown also explore the question of whether fish feel emotions, and if so, which ones. The interview debunks some assumed foundations of human supremicism and ethically demands that we change how industrial civilization treats fish.

Listen to this enjoyable and unique interview below, or play the interview at the Deep Green Resistance Youtube Channel.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio episodes.

Dahr Jamail interview for Resistance Radio

For the July 20 episode of Resistance Radio, Derrick Jensen interviewed Dahr Jamail, an award winning reporter for truthout.org. He began his career driven by the obvious lies surrounding the invasion of Iraq, not understanding the apathy of Americans all around him, but compelled to spend his small savings on a laptop, camera and a plane ticket to the middle east. Since then, he has continued to write about US imperialism, including oppposition to it by veterans; and about environmental issues from the BP oil spill to fracking to his current focus on anthropogenic climate disruption (climate change.)

Jamail and Jensen discuss important facts on how quickly climate disruption is advancing, its current and predicted impacts, and how official assessments consistently underestimate the harm in general caused by industrial civilization. They address the interplay of multiple aspects of ecocide and the insane lack of appropriate response by most civilized humans. The interview is an excellent fact-based reality check on our dire situation, and also inspiring as an example of one person finding his way to an appropriate response. As Jensen says, "The big distinction is not between those who believe we need militant resistance and those who believe that militant resistance isn't necessary. I've always thought that the big distinction is between those who do something and those who do nothing."

Learn more and get inspired by listening to this interview below, playing the interview at the Deep Green Resistance Youtube Channel, or reading Dahr Jamail's writings.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio episodes.

Deep Green Resistance book audio excerpts

We recently updated the Deep Green Resistance book page of our main website to link to audio excerpts read by DGR members. We have excerpts from the Preface and from Chapters 1, 4, 5, 12, 14, and 15: "The Problem", "Culture of Resistance", "Other Plans", "Introduction to Strategy", "Decisive Ecological Warfare" (entire chapter!), and "Our Best Hope." Look for the audio icons next to some of the chapters in the table of contents.

(Originally broadcast in 2012 on RAGE Radio, a great podcast series.)

Interview of Meghan Murphy

Ernesto Aguilar, a former DGR member, interviewed Meghan Murphy of Feminist Current for Women's History Month in March 2013. Murphy presents a clear and articulate analysis of the current state of online feminism – strengths and weaknesses, successes and works in progress, allies and backlash. She spoke extensively on the destructive tendency of online discussions to turn into horizontal hostility, and the ongoing pattern of silencing women:

I don't think that attacking and harassing feminists online counts as activism, or as supporting women, even if you kind of pretend you're doing it on behalf of women. Regardless of how you frame it, it's still about woman-hating, and it's about anti-feminism, and that's not progressive. If you're a man and you're harassing or silencing women, you can't pretend to be a progressive person or a person who cares about liberty or human rights or women's lives or the well being of women. That's not what allies do.

Later in the interview, she gets specific about a prominent silencing mechanism:

There's this thing that's become popular in the feminist blogosphere, and that's this overuse of the phobia language. I think that's a big problem. It's become common practice to label any [feminist] critique as a phobia. You hear things like "kink phobia", or "whore phobia", "transphobia", on and on and on. And I've personally been accused of all of these things, and I don't hate or fear prostituted women or trans people or kinky people.

What I want to have is conversations, and this is just another way to shut down conversation, and it's a part of the bullying that goes on in some parts of online feminism. It's about keeping people in line, and it's about keeping conversations restricted within narrow boundaries. If you don't like what someone says, you can call them some version of "phobic" and you can call someone a bigot and everyone shuts up. These are kind of the magic words that put fear in every feminist's heart, because they know that if they're called one of these things – some kind of "phobic" – that no one will stick up for them, because everyone else is afraid of being labeled by association. Everyone's afraid to have real conversations, because they see what happens, and they see what happens to other feminists, and they don't want that to happen to them.

Listen to the entire interview embedded below (originally posted at Feminist Current). And for elaboration on the tactic of shutting down feminist discourse by threatening to apply vague but powerful labels, see the latest article at Feminist Current: "How ‘TERF’ works", by Sarah Ditum.

Why Deep Green Resistance?

Listen to DGR members explain why they find the strategy laid out by the book so compelling and why they joined Deep Green Resistance.

Originally broadcast in 2012 on RAGE Radio, a great podcast series.

What We Leave Behind audio excerpt

Listen to a few pages of the chapter "Legacy" from What We Leave Behind, the book by Derrick Jensen and Aric McBay. The passage is read by Seymour Lyphe, originally aired on his show RAGE Radio: Resistance Against Global Ecocide.

Horizontal Hostility Conference - Max Wilbert

Members of Deep Green Resistance Canary Islands are creating a web conference on horizontal hostility, consisting of interviews with multiple speakers. "The aim of the conference is to raise consciousness about the mechanics of oppression and how its complex but predictable ways operate to keep us all neatly "in our place", divide us & effectively stop us achieving social, political, environmental & economic change as quickly as we need to."

The first interview is of Max Wilbert, by Stella Strega. Wilbert describes some of the horizontal hostility he's experienced and witnessed, mostly around the strong stance Deep Green Resistance has taken in defense of women's right to their own space. He laments the loss to social justice and environmental movements when activists are incapable of organizing across political differences to work together on issues of mutual concern. This wedge is especially tragic when activists turn a legitimate passion for justice against each other in attacks on insufficient "purity."

Wilbert also compares classic government COINTELPRO repression of social movements to contemporary Internet smear tactics recently laid out by JTRIG, a secret unit of the NSA. JTRIG is devoted to sowing distrust and suppressing social movements by manipulating online discourse, through, for example, publishing lies anonymously to discredit targeted people and groups.

Learn more about horizontal hostility and how we can defend against it by watching the video or playing the audio-only version of the interview below, or reading Max Wilbert's The Modern COINTELPRO and How To Fight It.

Browse all Deep Green Resistance member appearances.

Feminist Current - smart analysis of feminist issues

Meghan Murphy at Feminist Current writes a steady column of insightful and incisive articles from a strong feminist perspective, and regularly interviews women and men on a broad range of feminist issues. She lives in Canada, so some of her focus is specific to that country, but most of it is relevant to all of North America and the rest of the world. Smart and often funny, her analysis from current events to issues fought by feminists for decades is always worth the read. She also does a good job of moderating comments, so the space is useful and safe for women and feminist allies to have productive discussions.

Last summer, Murphy interviewed DGR's Rachel and Lexy Garza in the podcast Deep Green Resistance Under Attack, and has provided outstanding coverage in general of the backlash to radical feminism by Men's Rights Activists, trans/queer activists, and other misogynist attackers of women. You can see all the available Feminist Current podcasts or read the most recent Feminist Current articles. We highly recommend taking some time to peruse the site and its contents!

Deep Green Resistance Radio #1

Listen to the first episode in the new Deep Green Resistance Radio show, featuring Jennifer Murnan and Kourtney Mitchell, published on April 1, 2014.

This episode includes news of Mohawk protesters blockading rail lines in eastern Ontario, an interview with William Falk of DGR San Diego on police sexual violence against women, Rachel on the roots of patriarchy and resistance to male violence, a summary of recent DGR activity around the world, discussion of the Jericho Movement, and some news about the release of former Black Panther Party leader Marshall "Eddie" Conway from prison after 44 years.

For more information on issues covered in this episode, see:

• FED UP San Diegans Against Police Sexual Misconduct
• Warrior Sisters Society
• Deep Green Resistance Campaigns & Activity
• Marshall "Eddie" Conway on Democracy Now!
• The Jericho Movement fights to free all political prisoners

Browse all Deep Green Resistance member appearances.

Sam Leah on Resistance Radio

Sam Leah serves on the DGR Steering Committee and is a founding member of Warrior Sisters Society, a women-run Eugene OR nonprofit providing free self defense training to women. Derrick Jensen interviewed Leah for the June 1st episode of Resistance Radio.

Leah explains the realities for women of living in a rape culture, and how self defense training has been shown to empower women and dramatically decrease the rates of assaults by men. She describes the work being done by Warrior Sisters Society, the inspiration it takes from the Gulabi Gang in India, and the positive results already experienced by participants.

Warrior Sisters Society provides a strong example of how women can collectively take matters into their own hands and resist patriarchy and rape culture, and this interview gives important insight into the direct action philosophy that led to its formation. Play the embedded audio below or listen to the interview on the DGR Youtube channel.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio interviews.

Saba Malik on Resistance Radio

Saba Malik is on the board of Fertile Ground Environmental Institute, a non-profit dedicated to political and environmental education, and on the advisory board of Deep Green Resistance. She is a mother of two and has been a feminist and anti-racist activist for most of her adult life. Derrick Jensen interviewed her for the May 25th airing of Resistance Radio.

In this interview, Saba Malik and Derrick Jensen discuss misogyny, ecocide, and the relationship between the two. Malik explains that a mindset of domination links the various forms of oppression we see in civilization. This mindset seizes on perceivable differences between groups to create classes, with one class justified in exploiting the other. This began with agriculture: the formation of sex classes gave men the "right" to use women for labor, offspring, and sex. As civilization expanded, this relationship was used as a model for dominating other "races" of humans and other species.

Play the embedded audio below, or listen to the interview on the DGR Youtube channel.

Browse all of Derrick Jensen's Resistance Radio interviews.